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Google Fiber/ISPs part II: The Ultimate Circlejerk

2013.03.02 08:11 firemylasers Google Fiber/ISPs part II: The Ultimate Circlejerk

As some of you may recall, I wrote a post about the Google Fiber jerk about 5 months ago.
Since then, I've become more and more disgusted with /technology's fascination of Google and condemnation of all other ISPs.
I've noticed that the jerk has become so bad that anyone who doesn't accept Google as their lord and savior gets downvoted to hell and back. Google Fiber threads are full of people spouting bullshit and projections about the service.
My last post was focused on debunking some common claims as well as showing off the jerk. This one is intended to be a bit of an expansion of the last one, but this time I'll be covering more subjects. This post will primarily cover the jerk itself and debunk common myths instead of primarily focusing on mocking individual comments like most submissions in here do.
I wrote about a third of this before remembering to disable automatic spellchecking, so if you notice some weird words that don't seem quite right, leave a comment pointing them out and I'll fix it.
So let's get started!
Wall of text warning: This post is roughly 4000 words long, there is NO Tl;Dr, either read it or don't read it, your call.


It's clear that Google is popular in /technology. It's pretty much guaranteed that you'll see an article about them at least once a week, and articles bashing other ISPs are also upvoted quite a bit. Submitting an article about Google Fiber? As long as the headline is in their favor, it's pretty much guaranteed karma. I have abused this to gain several thousand points of link karma. If you average out the 5 major articles I've submitted about the subject, the actual average amount of upvotes is around 1581. I'd even go as far as saying that this is the biggest circlejerk on the site. Unfortunately, very few people seem to understand anything about the whole project. They just get excited at the prospect of 1Gbps without bothering to fact-check or think things through.
Articles bashing other ISPs also see a disproportionate amount of upvotes. The number one link of all time on /technology has the title "Dear Google Fiber: Please, please, please rescue me from Comcast". Now I can't resist dissecting this article, so let's take a quick look inside.
The author starts off by mentioning that he has network issues. Instead of calling his ISP to get them fixed, he decides that whining about his ISP is a better idea. He then compares his ISP to a girlfriend. It's already a terrible article. But then he starts talking about Google Fiber — praising them, whining about his service (which, ironically, is $66/mo and has both internet and basic cable, while Google Fiber with TV would be $120/mo plus fees — it seems that he isn't willing to pay for better TV unless it comes from Google). The entire article is nothing more than a poorly written blurb about Google Fiber and the author's personal wishes. And yet, redditors decided that it's worthy of being the number one post of all time on their technology subreddit — voted higher than articles like "397-0. House approves resolution to keep Internet control out of UN hands.", "Syria has disconnected from the Internet. All 84 of Syria's IP address blocks have become unreachable, effectively removing the country from the Internet.", and "EFF wins renewal of exemptions to the DMCA for smartphone jailbreaking rights plus new legal protections for video remixing; "If you bought your gadget, you own it, and you should be able to install whatever software you please without facing potential legal threats"".
Even as I write this post, the number one submission on /technology is bashing TWC for saying that people don't really need 1Gbps. And this brings me onto the next topic of discussion…

People don't really need 1Gbps

Say that phrase in /technology and you've just pissed off a sizable portion of the 2.6 million subscribers. It's like committing internet suicide. For some odd reason, redditors are obsessed with 1Gbps. Why?
Well, it's cool. There's no denying that. Do you know what else is cool? A Ferrari. Let's use the Ferrari analogy to explain why 1Gbps is useless! You see, you've just bought this Ferrari. It's fast. Very fast. But the speed limit is 55MPH. It's cool to show off to your friends, but uselessly overpowered for the task at hand.
If that wasn't clear enough, go read my previous post. Most servers can't even serve 100Mbps clients. Even torrents can have issues saturating that fast of a line. And, despite many projects intended to find a use for it, nobody has found a consumer use for gigabit internet beyond "lol it's fast". Of course, reddit finds a way around that argument…
Time warner is lying through it's teeth, because it KNOWS we DO, but it doesn't want to provide it when it can make so much on it's customers now.
I think most of you can see the issue here. As I've already shown, 1Gbps is pretty much worthless right now. It's for bragging rights, not utility. But for some reason, redditors seem to think that it's essential.
Just for fun, let's look at ways that we could use 1Gbps with a 5-person family. Let's say Netflix suddenly starts offering 4k streams. Assuming they use the same compression that YouTube used to use before they pulled 4k support, that's a bitrate of 30Mbps per stream. Even with six streams running, that's only 180Mbps — you don't even need fiber for those speeds! DOCSIS 3.0 Cable systems can support up to 300Mbps with channel bonding, and DOCSIS 3.1 will support even higher. And again, we're looking at 4k — realistically, everyone would be streaming 1080p (roughly 7Mbps bitrate with Netflix's "SuperHD" option), so that's only 35Mbps.
And on a related note, h.265 will bring that number down to around 20Mbps per 4k stream. You'll be seeing mass adoption of h.265 within a few years.
You can argue all day about ways to saturate 1Gbps, but it's incredibly difficult to do. Torrents can saturate a nice chunk of it, but only if they're well seeded, and how much (LEGAL) torrent traffic does the average person use anyways? Most people are streaming and browsing the web, not downloading Linux ISOs, WoW, and the small amount of software with Torrent downloads as an option.
So really, the entire argument for 1Gbps boils down to "I want fast speeds, even though I can't use them for most of what I do online".
Of course, redditors are never happy with this quick of a conclusion, so they dredge out the "ram argument". See, someone may or may not have said something about 640k or 64k of RAM being all you'd ever need, way back at some point in the 90s. Nowadays, this (possibly completely made up) quote is used to justify gigabit fiber. But what these people don't seem to understand is that if this was true to the extent they're claiming it's true, you'd have never seen any innovation in technology. Nada. Zilch. If you actually had to have widespread adoption for a use, nothing would ever be invented. Let's look at electricity. It was useful far before widespread adoption. What about internet? That didn't require widespread adoption to come up with uses for it. And cars? Those were developed when roads were usually gravel paths or dirt, maybe cobblestone if you were lucky. So like all the other "justifications", it doesn't really justify anything.
…on the other hand, even this isn't enough to convince everyone.
I think the fact that people in Kansas City can rent out their houses just on the fact that they have google fiber shows that many people don't just want it, but are willing to go out of their way to get it.
Ah yes, I remember reading about that. Except as usual, the facts are exaggerated beyond belief.
So one room being rented out suddenly equals "people in Kansas City can rent out their homes"? Hah.

The shady side of Google's deal

Something a lot of people don't realize about Google Fiber is that their deal with Kansas City is shady in many ways. Here's a few quotes from the Google-KCMO agreement.
In consultation with City, Google will decide where to build the initial locations of the Project
Oh boy. Now this is a big one. Did you catch that?
Google will decide where to build
Yeah. They get to choose where to build out the fiber. Now I don't have the Kansas City cable franchise agreement, and can't find it anywhere online, so let's use my city's franchise agreement as an example, as this type of agreement is pretty generic.
5.3 Operator shall extend service to all residences within an annexed area adjacent to any portion of the City then currently served by Operator in which the density of homes is at least six (6) residences per 1320 cable-bearing feet (one-quarter cable mile) measured from Operator’s existing distribution system (excluding homes subscribing to direct satellite) within twelve (12) months of a request by residents of such area for service. In the event that such annexed area is served by another cable operator or its technically or financially infeasible at the time of such request, Operator will have the option but not the obligation to provide service.
Now one city is obviously not proof of anything, so here's New York's cable franchise agreement.
5.3 Provision of Service: Subject to the exceptions set forth in Subsection 5.4 hereof, Franchisee shall make Cable Service available to all households in the Initial Service Area. Franchisee agrees that it shall not discriminate between or among any individuals in the availability of Cable Service or based upon the income of residents in a local area.
Damn! That's a hell of a lot different from Google's agreement! So there you have it — Google gets to deploy wherever they want, while, if the KCKS/KCMO Franchise Agreements are the same as the examples here, TWC is forced into covering the entire city. How again is TWC being "beaten" by Google when Google isn't even following the same rules?
But wait! There's more!
City will make space available to Google in City facilities for the installation of Google’s Central Office (“CO”) equipment and for additional network facilities, in locations to be determined as part of the design. In addition, City will provide power necessary for Google’s equipment at City locations. Google will install all equipment necessary for operation of its facilities. City will cooperate with Google in connection with all equipment matters under this Agreement, and will not charge Google for such space, power or related services.
Subject to City’s reasonable security measures and escort procedures, City will provide to Google and its contractors 24 x 7 access to Google’s network in City facilities so that Google may perform installation, operation, maintenance, replacement and repair functions. City will secure City locations via locked doors that trigger alarms in the event of unauthorized entry.
The parties will determine the timing for delivery of the necessary space for the Google equipment cooperatively as part of the Project planning. Location may be changed at the discretion of City to locations at least as suitable. In the event of such a change, City will cooperate with Google to allow for any necessary reconfiguration of Google’s network and the necessary move of any Google equipment. Any such change will be undertaken in a manner that is as least disruptive to Google’s operations as possible. The parties will negotiate in good faith to determine the appropriate cost responsibility.
City will not charge Google for access to City’s assets and infrastructure.
City will provide Google with access to assets and infrastructure of City, to the extent such assets or infrastructure are available and are needed for Google’s deployment of the fiber network. City will use its best efforts to make such assets available to Google upon request, on commercially reasonable terms. Such infrastructure may include, but will not be limited to, conduit, fiber, poles, rack space, nodes, buildings, facilities, CO locations, available land, and others (TBD).
City will not impose any charges for access to or use of any City facilities provided under this Agreement, nor will it impose any permit and inspection fees.
City will cooperate with Google in efforts to allow Google to gain access to poles and rights-of-way owned or controlled by third parties.
Additional notable obligations under the contract:
(c) Create a City team dedicated to the Project and allow Google to place Project employees in City office locations, working side-by-side with the dedicated City team.
(e) Provide access to assets and infrastructure, with no charges for such access.
(h) Use the dedicated City Project team to provide on-the-spot exception management where necessary to avoid delays in the Project.
(i) Provide a dedicated inspection team as part of the City Project team for inspection of all work performed on the Project. As part of this process, City will permit Google to use an approved third-party inspection firm to assist the City in completing necessary inspections in a rapid, timely manner.
(j) Allow Google to attach fiber on City poles, to the extent such poles are technically suitable and mutually agreeable for attaching a fiber optic cable.
(k) Provide Google with access to detailed GIS data and computer tools, including location information on all facilities owned by City and, to the extent available, those of third parties, with no charges for such access.
(l) Provide consulting assistance to Google on planning and build of the Project, as requested by Google. Such requests will be responded to in a timely manner sufficient to meet Google’s design and build requirements.
(o) Cooperate with Google on all publicity and public relations for the Project, including the obligation to obtain Google’s approval for all public statements or announcements related to the Project.
Holy shit! I don't see those provisions in New York's or Carbondale's franchise agreements! Google gets free from the government? Google gets to censor the government's words?
What was that argument I keep on hearing?
Braindead corporate greed strikes again.
Let's get rid of these disgusting internet monopolies, then we would see real internet development.
I have no doubt in my mind that Google will become the majority provider if they continue expanding their service in the states. Other companies can't keep up.
There's no demand for TWC to provide 1Gb because the price would be insane. Google is showing that yes, it is possible, and yes, it can be affordable.
Free market at its finest. I hope Google destroys current ISPs.
[this one is extremely long, so here's a tiny snippet]
Google is giving me a hard on for capitalism.
You want competition? You want CAPITALISM? This is what we need. Someone willing to SPEND money to flip the fucking table over and laugh.
I demand they sell me 1Gbps for $70/month with no cap.
God I hate cable tv/internet companies. So they admit they can provide faster speeds but the "demand isn't there." NO, the demand is there, just not at ABSURD prices. They won't even tell you the real prices on their website they are so bad. I was paying $60 a month for 25 mb/s. That's $10 less than Google fiber which gives 1 gb/s and other perks. Just a complete joke.
Google Fiber is the monkey wrench in the system that proves that their prices and speeds aren't derived from real, vigorous competition. GF comes into the picture and suddenly they're offering higher speeds at lower prices in the same areas? Why didn't one of them do it earlier? Surely one of them wanted to compete with the other because free market. Surely they wouldn't have colluded and made at least a tacit agreement to only compete with each other at the low end of technically available service possibilities while squashing competition from the high end until someone came along with so much money and influence that it couldn't be stopped. No, that's crazy.
Google Fiber is a beacon of hope in these shitty times.
Hmmm. This doesn't quite look like much of a free market success, and I'm not surprised that national ISPs with 8.7 million internet customers are reluctant to destroy their current infrastructure, build everything with fiber, and somehow get the obscene city benefits that Google got from Kansas City in all the cities these ISPs serve.
So, yet again, Google's little success story is nothing more than a misleading lie.
I could go into further detail on this, but there's lots to talk about!

The 97% myth

Anyone remember this article? It's been quoted over and over again. People are convinced that all the big cable companies are raking in the cash.
Now I'm pretty sure that everyone on this subreddit can already see some flaws, but there's a simple and very big one that should be noted — if margins were this high, everyone would own an ISP!
We might already know that it's bullshit, but gullible redditors latched onto it and started quoting it wherever they can.
Search for the phrase "cable distribution giants like Time Warner Cable and Comcast are already making a 97 percent margin on their ‘almost comically profitable’ Internet services" (with quotes) in Google and you'll see an impressive 1200 results. Quite high for a 27 day old article, and this is just direct quotes!
The source for all this bullshit is MIT's David Talbot. On February 4th he published an article entitled "When Will the Rest of Us Get Google Fiber?" link.
In parts of the country, slower-speed copper, fast-download cable, and a few fiber networks are already built out. The cable distribution giants like Time Warner Cable and Comcast are already making a 97 percent margin on their “almost comically profitable” Internet services, according to Craig Moffet, an analyst at the Wall Street firm Bernstein Research. As Levin points out, “If you are making that kind of margin, it’s hard to improve it.” And most Americans have no choice but to deal with their local cable company.
Full halt!
according to Craig Moffet, an analyst at the Wall Street firm Bernstein Research.
Hmmm. I wonder where I might find information on this report of his.
Aha! Talbot is a lying sack of shit who misquoted Moffet so that Talbot's article is nice and controversial. Case closed, party's over.

The 140 billion dollar question

Another thing redditors like is the prospect of universal broadband. For some reason, they seem to think that everyone is entitled to 1Gbps broadband at $70/mo, so lots of people are suddenly in favor of a government-funded fiber rollout. As such, when an article claimed a nationwide rollout would cost $140 billion, redditors jumped on the bandwagon and started blindly citing the figure.
Building out the infrastructure will be expensive. In his September 17 report Still Bullish on Cable, although not blind to the risks, Goldman Sachs Telco analyst Jason Armstrong noted that if Google devoted 25% of its $4.5bn annual capex to this project, it could equip 830K homes per year, or 0.7% of US households. As such, even a 50mn household build out, which would represent less than half of all US homes, could cost as much as $70bn. We note that Jason Armstrong estimates Verizon has spent roughly $15bn to date building out its FiOS fiber network covering an area of approximately 17mn homes. The cost of ongoing test cases like this and the potential for significant cap ex investments also likely contributed to the company’s recent decision to issue non-voting class C shares in an effective stock split, in our view. Moreover, in the same note, Jason Armstrong also pointed out that Google’s TV offering represents the fifth (or higher) competitor in an already competitive market. All that said, while this initiative is clearly still in very early days, going direct to consumers with internet connectivity and video distribution could give Google the potential to become the end users sole channel for media consumption.
I see no 140 billion figure there. What's more, Verizon's costs for deploying FiOS are around $23 billion [1][2][3][4][5], not 17 billion. 23000000000/17000000 = average of $1350 per home. 17000000000/17000000 = inaccurate average of $1000 per home.
Now we're looking at averages in Verizon's footprint here, not all over the country. Rural areas cost much more money than the cities and suburbs that FiOS tends to be deployed in. And, what's more, these per-home numbers are averages of Verizon's costs to pass 17m homes with only 5.4m hooked up internet customers. The much higher hookup rates for a national networks would drive costs up even further than $1350 per home.
Still, for the sake of debate, let's assume the economies of scale would make the average cost per home $1000. There are 115 million households in the United States. Roughly 20% are rural. 80% of 115000000 is 92000000. 92000000 * $1000 is 92 billion dollars. That's just to cover all non-rural households, using the lowest possible per-home cost figures. In reality, per-home costs for 80% of the United States with realistic uptake numbers would probably be at least $1500 per home, meaning that 80% would cost 138 billion dollars. And that other 20%? The average cost per home for rural areas could be anywhere from $3000 to $10000 (ignoring the extremely hard to reach areas since those could cost hundreds of thousands each and would skew the numbers too far up). Even if it's $5000, that's 115 billion dollars right there. These numbers don't scale linearly, you can't lump rural and residential together under the residential rate.
So basically, incompetent reporters have manufactured a story of the 140 billion dollar fiber upgrade, an upgrade that would never be anywhere near that cheap to cover 100% of the nation. And, as usual, without even bothering to fact-check, redditors seized the story and used it to promote their wishful dream of 1Gbps fiber for everybody.
(on a side note, I find it hilarious that redditors think that universal fiber is more important than America's power infrastructure, roads, bridges, education, college, debt, financial crisis, etc)

The international community

Ah yes, other countries. Here on /circlebroke there are many articles discussing the "sweden" jerk. On /technology, people like other countries for other reasons — they can compare them to the US and bash us for not being as fast on fiber uptake! Yay!
..and every single one of these people ignores the government-funded infrastructure projects that paid for the infrastructures used by those other countries, the censorship (china, korea), the terrible international speeds (effectively making many of these networks nothing more than a superfast country-wide LAN), the larger population density (gigabit may be $20/mo in Hong Kong, but a 40-square foot apartment is the hidden cost), the late adoption of the internet (it's easy to build out fiber when you don't have existing copper and coax), the smaller country size, and other inconvenient facts.

The Dark Fiber Myth

What's that? Fiber is expensive to build out? Then why do we have all this dark fiber? I saw a news article a while ago about Google buying it, I bet they're using it for Google Fiber!
Nope. Nope nope nope nope. First of all, the vast majority of the dark fiber they bought was backbone fiber. It's not very useful for deploying residential FTTH. The primary reason they bought so much of it was for datacenter-to-datacenter private transport and for Google's CDN / free peering. Google themselves have confirmed this.
Case closed.

Netflix's PR stunt

Way back in November 2012, Netflix published rankings on ISP speeds. As usual, they included all major US ISPs. But this time, they included… Wait for it… Google Fiber!
It's a blantant PR stunt. Google has very few customers, if they're ranking Google then they should rank muni networks like EPB as well as private companies like Paxio and, but instead they decided to only included Google. Of course, this thread took off a bit too fast on reddit, spawning a few highly amusing comments.
I hope they start rolling out Google Fiber in more cities soon. This has the potential to finally restore some genuine competition to the broadband market.
"I hope Porche gives me a free car soon. This has the potential to make luxury car prices lower. Oh and I'll also be paying more taxes. The IRS guy said something about a grant to Porche to bring cheap luxury cars to the American public, but that's unrelated to my car, right?"


"I disagree with you and have no way of matching your arguments, therefore you are a SHILL!"
I would leave comcst in a ny minute.... those comments at the bottom of the article musta been shills for the cable companies
Well, I submitted a short 5 star review.
^ They find some (possible) shills (who quite clearly read the book), get outraged at them (lol) and decide to do..exactly the same thing. Except without a well-written response, without reading the book, without even bothering to write a proper review. Good job?
I also just got called a shill in /circlebroke :D
You're clearly insane, or joking or lying or SHILLING.
(being the shill or contractor you clearly are)

But what happened to open access?
Openness and choice: We'll operate an "open access" network, giving users the choice of multiple service providers. And consistent with our past advocacy, we'll manage our network in an open, non-discriminatory and transparent way.
Funny how they conveniently forgot about that when it came to actually rolling out their service.
submitted by firemylasers to circlebroke [link] [comments]

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